Always fun to copy paste threads that are bound to be deleted. When they are here they stay forever!!! So people might find this horror before spending money on a dead product. Read on future subhell owners... read on and turn around go gogo while you still can :)

Original thread HERE (if it is still there of course ;)


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Old 03-12-2009, 12:12 PM #2
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All that is the work of one very angry old Subdreamer customer who wasn't given everything he wanted. Our company is no longer located in Florida, I moved away from there over 2 years ago.

Nothing to get worried over, just one upset customer trying to cause as much trouble as he can. We're still alive and kicking, working very hard to release new software including Subdreamer CMS 3. I know there has been a big silence from us, but I'll just take this little time to assure everyone that some incredible new software is coming out this year by us. When I get more time I'll start posting information in a new blog.
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Old 03-12-2009, 01:49 PM #3
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Ziad, thanks for reassuring us that sub dreamer is still alive and well
I for one like the software. and will be around for another year. however.. you must see the mood around the software isnt what it was when I purchased it just over a year ago. the whole thing has slowed down to a point where people have posted wondering if the project was dead. others begging for plug-in updates.. template updates... perhaps some kind of progress update in the forums both here.. and the main subdreamer site to give a estimated date of the next release..if not some updates to the more popular plug-ins or templates... as the forums are where alot of potential customers go to read what others are saying about the software before they buy... I see the signs of some unhappy people.. and that cant remain profitable. Just some of my observations..
I hope things pick up and Sub Dreamer continues for many years to come.
Looking forward to SD 3.0
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:28 PM #4
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Ziad, as a customer it has been very difficult this past year and a half waiting on promises from your company, especially when 'live avatars' got updated recently.

It almost seems like there is no focus or a lack of commitment towards SubDreamer customers. It is even more difficult to hold loyalty when I have recommended your product to various clients and then have had to find ways around SubDreamers short comings from your promised new versions to plugin creations or updates.

Often I find myself implementing new ways of fulfilling my client’s needs because of this lack of progress from promises, which has increased both my programming and html skills, so I guess I could in a round about way thank you for that. However this is not the reason I purchased or recommended SubDreamer, I did so because of its ease of use, which seems by comparison to other CMS’s, very dated now.

I have to say I understand this guy's 'whinnyness', but I have also been an out spoken member here and on .com for improvements, where many have agreed, so from this perspective I know what he is complaining about. It is very difficult at times only to hear from one person, Brent, who was at time very gruff with his responses or even non responsive, but I am happy to say has improved immensely. So Thank you Brent.

Customer Services
It is even more disappointing that there are no new articles on techniques on how use SubDreamer on either .com or .org, which would be at least a step to produce customer retention. This simple little task by either contribution or by staff to demonstrate creative ways to use SubDreamer would go a long way for customer retention and building a new customer base.
A core team of experienced members I am sure would step up to the plate to build a GOOD FAQ plugin that could be used on .com and/or .org site for the simple trade off of an extra year on their license.
During this past year I have sought out several talented plugin creators to ask why they have left the SubDreamer community and gone on to other CMS’s, and it deals with simple customer service and lack of update issues.

Marketing
Why is SubDreamer still not on CMS Matrix?
Why do you not have an affiliate program?
Simple ideas to generate income to further get quality programmers or staff. It is hard to watch this great CMS loose talented community members because the application itself is not progressing at regular intervals at least something new once a quarter other than another skin with generic layouts.


I hope you understand this was not a way of bashing you or SubDreamer, but an honest review of what goes on in some of your customers minds….it takes so little to step up to retain a customer, but so much more to convert a customer back.

I eagerly await SD3.0 and would be happy to continue to give an honest feed back as a beta tester if you would have me.
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Old 03-12-2009, 10:05 PM #5
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After reading William's post, I must say between him and LWS you've simply taken the words right from my mouth almost. I feel the same way.

Personally I love Subdreamer, and like developing for it, but as many as stated, it just seems to feel as a dying project, which as of late, you've increased my hope by being around again, Ziad. My company has created 30 plugins, some very simple ones and a number of skins!! But I would consider my company/me a very big supporter and one of the few companies that are left. Of the companies/business's I'm aware and there status:

SDSkins2go - alive
Business Plugins - alive
OHare Portal - alive, but undergoing a restructure (my company)
SDDepot - Dead
Brilliant Web Solutions (something like that) - Dead (sold off product to SDDepot)
Subdreamer Mods (also known as another name but can't remember - Dead


I'm really looking forward to Subdreamer 3.0 (eta 1st half of this year, so a june release). I've looked at other products and can't find anything that compares in a lot of ways, simplicity of use wise, and actual content control, most other CMS's seem more like glorified Blogs then an actual CMS, in my opinion.

I'm starting to do a lot of reselling with Subdreamer, which is bringing more clients through me, but I still have a deep concern as William has stated with the lack of progress.... (not saying there isn't progress, just hardly evident).

So I hope this year is a big turn around for the company. I have lots of ideas, and would love to help my client base grow, but also indirectly helps Subdreamer grow as I have more clients/licenses.

Anyways thats just some thoughts to add to the conversation...

--Steven
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Old 03-13-2009, 01:29 AM #6
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What about me? I am still around.

Plugin sales are going great.

SD3 still seems a long way off - 6mths plus would be my estimate.

Just think how much time developers and users will need for changeover from 2.6 -> 3

I know for us at BusinessPlugins.com we would wait a few months for a stable core system before upgrading plugins for sd3
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Old 03-13-2009, 09:38 AM #7
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Woah, yeah my bad, sorry to leave you off the list, had been a really long day for me Thomas!!!

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Old 03-13-2009, 04:18 PM #8
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hehehe...Steven got OWNED LOL j/k

Yes Thomas has done some wonderful work.

But on your statement, Thomas, about moving from 2.6 -> 3, the only thing that has been stated in the new skin system will be vastly different...I would imagine that Ziad would take in to consideration not altering the plugin side much. I mean it seems to work very well comparably to other CMS's, so it kinda brings up the point of if it isn't broken, don't tinker with it.

But on the other hand I could see lots of improvements to plugin logic, but as you made mention it would take some effort to convert the plugins to a new logic style. I for one would just like to see all plugins out there currently updated to function properly with even 2.6. I know it's not a SubDreamer issue as many are user submitted, however with the growing popularity of plugins for other CMS's it would behove SD to rethink to relauch 3.0 very strongly with all updated plugins.

Just my .02
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Old 04-04-2009, 09:13 AM #9
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As a non-programmer and simple webmaster using SubDreamer I have to agree with the above as well. I have purchased paid plugins and have had several custom plugins written for pay - so I have a serious financial investment in SubDreamer. When I first went that path years ago it had issues - but was very cool and promising. It's core technology hasn't really changed while all the other CMS's have come light years since then. It is a painful and expensive process to move to another solution - but the utter silence from SubDreamer has forced me to being migration to vBadvanced Dynamics, a full database driven CMS frontend for vBulletin (which is what I used SD for) that can use the 1,000+ plugins from CMPS.

Don't get me wrong, the SD attraction was the simple, clean look and feel. vBa products extend vBulletin and carry with them the more complicated look and feel. Due to the nature of my site I have mostly non-technical members that are very computer challenged and just want the cleanest look. Due to my existing investments to integrate things like PhotoPost, PhotoReviews, FlashChat and about a dozen other things I would love to see nothing more than a revival of SD. Obviously AJAX and other Web 2.0 tech's need to be mainstream and security needs to...well...start existing.

Please take this as constructive...I am not slamming SD. Security is a major issue. Now, SD as a standalone product with no plugins other than default, the default skin and no integrations with anything else and it is OK security wise. (Still been hacked - apache and SNORT logs sent to support team a long time ago...). The problem is that SD is so lacking in updated features that any serious web site must rely on additional skins, plugins, third party application integration, etc. There is sometimes no good way to accomplish these things. The FlashChat integration posted on SD's .org site for example, led to a site hack. If SD is to survive then it needs to expand the avaialble functionality and standardize on a way to integrate to avoid such issues. There also needs to be significant improvements in security. Protected directories are a start, but I would love to see at least plugins that did configurable geo-location filtering, brute force attempt intruder lockout, in-site backup/restore of site and databases, MD5 hashing with email alerting of particular directories, etc. These are things that other CMS products have greatly increase security that CMS has never even mentioned.

Again, I wish you guy(s) the best, but I have my doubts. For example, the site was recently down and AFTERWARDS we were told it was a server move gone bad. Well, as a 20 year I.T. pro, servers rarely get moved without some notification to users - especially ones that are paying for your software. I find it either hard to believe or unprofessional (you choose) that this is what happened. It is more likely that the site was hacked and this was the cover story. Again, with more open communications from the dev team maybe this would have been a non issue?

I hope SD 3 is released soon and blows us all away with it's greatness and I can safely feel warm and fuzzy about using it. That would make me happy. :-) Until then...Plan B has got to move forward since there is nothing new int eh downloads section here and status quo will simply not work.
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Old 04-04-2009, 10:09 AM #10
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Not knowing eats me the most, is it on or is it off ...

A few comments every now and then or a simple progress bar to tell how far the work has gone would be nice.

I wont denie am allways looking out for new CMS's but I have a few SD licenses and I like the SD product verry much.


We might not need Subdreamer 3 ASAP but a small update to Sd2.6 wich is allready verry stable and only needs some minor fixing, would give us somthing to work with and be a good injection for the community.

I upgraded my SD last desmeber just to show my support and to give some money to the project.

I think more users should do the same. We will be rewarded in the end with a good ongoing community and product.

I wont give up easyle on Subdreamer and I will stick with it at least throug out this year.
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Writing the above post led to a conversation with a couple friends of mine - both active webmasters over a combined 15 or so sites. They are not SD fans and brought up a good point that the SD dev team should consider...

To build a small personal web site with a few pages and not much content takes less than an afternoon. Someone that wants to get fancy with this type of site may buy SD. It is easy to build a site with - easy to walk away and start over if SD goes away.

People building sites with the intention of 500+ registered members and integration to a forum package and other applications have a totally different set of concerns. These people are willing to give up features and functions if they know two things: (1) The site is secure, and (2) The products used are actively being developed and keeping pace with technology.

SubDreamer is in a tough place. For the personal site it is expensive given the many free, well supported alternatives like Joomla. For the larger sites, given the long periods of silence, there is just no way to justify starting a site today with SD. Most of the remaining customers are ones that have a vested interest - like me - in an existing site with custom coding.

I do not know the personal situation of the owners of SD. I strongly suspect that SD does not pay the bills. Could it though? Through advertising, getting the word out, releasing updates more frequently and generating sales..? Bring back the warm and fuzzy feeling that you love us...please?
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:01 AM #12
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I run a website using SD mostly as a nice looking shell/frontpage with almost all my content based on my vBulletin-forum. So far I've been happy with SD, but the lack of visible improvement/development is beginning to get at me.
I've noticed that the coming vBulletin 4.0. will move more in the direction af an actual CMS-system, which of cause will make me consider my future on the SD-platform, unless something positive will happen. The lack of information on a regular basis is unsettling.
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Old 04-12-2009, 08:42 PM #13
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My license expired and I didn't get any major software updates during the whole year. I won't update my license until the SD3 come out.
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Old 04-25-2009, 02:08 AM #14
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Thats a Good Idea.......ditto!
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:57 AM #15
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That's what I'll do, too! The lack of information about the future of SD is killing me. I allready thought about changing the CMS ...
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:02 AM #16
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Elvis,
Im already past the thinking stage
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Old 04-29-2009, 07:28 AM #17
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Elvis,
Im already past the thinking stage
How's your Drupal-powered website coming along?
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:31 AM #18
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Amazing.
Should have started there , instead of ending up there, if you know what I mean

I still have a few running Subdreamer, but they will suffer the same fate im afraid.
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Old 04-29-2009, 10:29 AM #19
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Amazing.
Should have started there , instead of ending up there, if you know what I mean

I still have a few running Subdreamer, but they will suffer the same fate im afraid.
I am switching most of my websites to Wordpress instead.

I don't know about you but I'm kind of tired for paying for custom-built plugins.
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Old 04-29-2009, 03:28 PM #20
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I've looked at other CMS's and solutions, but didn't come up with any in my opinion, to many of them were basically blogs with more features, and I wouldn't really call that a cms. Where as subdreamer you have full control.

Things like wordpress, drupal and many others are all pretty much article management with lots of extras to give it more abilities, but in the end I didn't find it to be a actual CMS, like subdreamer is....

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If I had several businesses dependent on the CMS, I would say the exact same thing too.
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:40 PM #22
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If I had several businesses dependent on the CMS, I would say the exact same thing too.
signalzero did it for the LULz!
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Old 04-29-2009, 10:26 PM #23
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I actually only have 1 sector of my comapny that relies on it. So its not several, and no I was being honest.

Wordpress, Drupal and many others, don't give you content control that you have in subdreamer. Such as choosing where the content goes on every page. Most of them felt like Article Management/blogs with a lot of added features. I've tried many. Also that is not the case with all of them though, but on a usability standpoint (ease of use), subdreamer is far superior. Like Joomla I would not consider in the Article Management/blogs, whereas its more a true CMS, like subdreamer. Expect its a pain to use in comparison. And don't give me that excuse just because I have vested interest. I do and thats not a lie. But at least with the dozen or so CMS, I didn't find many that were what I would call a CMS (as I've stated before). Most of my business is through hosting, and I do love subdreamer.
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Old 04-30-2009, 04:50 AM #24
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I have to agree with steven. I have looked at others in a full comparision and I keep coming back to SD. But I have spent alot of time creating extra plugins and mods to be better than the other CMS's
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Old 04-30-2009, 05:13 AM #25
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You have your opinion and it wasn't an excuse.

I have a site up on another CMS, and have been playing with it for some time now. I think having 5 subdreamer sites give me the advantage of knowing what it can and can not do.
I will say in no way can it compare to what Drupal can do. CCK ( Content Creation Kit ) and Taxonomy is a very very power combination and does way more. Until you use it and understand it, just comparing it doesn't do it justice.

Ease of use , Subdreamer is by far easier to use, I wont argue that. At a certain point, you need to get under the hood and see what power it has and what it can do. I certainly can do more, with alot less hacking and tweaking than I ever could do in SD. I also have had some HUGE modules written that can do what SD cant.

We wont even discuss the amount of plugins and bridges available compared to SD.

This isnt a slam against anyone, its a honest , open review. SD has its place , and for me , my subscription has expired, and I see a huge gap in development and a severe lack of open , honest communication from the company.

If I were in your position , I too would be concerned that you are running a business mostly dependent on this CMS. The end user needs a CMS that also grows and matures , and this one is NOT. Mine has had 6 releases this year alone, how many has SD had ?

Don't think I am the lone voice. In this economic climate, people aren't going to pay for things that don't work, or that aren't progressing as they should.
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Old Today, 07:31 AM #26
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a 100 years ago the horse was far superior to any other means of transportation.. see what happened to that. CRT was far superior to LCD, see what happened. Big gasoline gusting cars where superior, look what most drive these days.

Result earned in the past do not guarantee the future. You are as good as you last product it is as simple as that.

A product can be as good as it is but if not sustained, supported and maintained then it is like pulling a dead horse,failure imminent.

All i see at this forum and the .com is vanishing posts, vague promises on new releases (started somewhere early 2007 as far as i can track back!!!) and many many many deleted threads, posts with people that never post again, weird. Noticed a Hotscript revue, well hmm not very good at all